Crypto in Africa and the Communism of Ubuntu

In this episode I spoke to Eric Annan, founder of Aya, a startup in Africa trying to bring more Africans into the crypto space I met while at Zuzalu. We had some very interesting conversations together while there and I thought he would be great to have on the show to discuss crypto from one African perspective.

During the discussion we spoke about the realities of crypto in Africa, the potential of blockchain for pan-Africanism, and "the Communism of Ubuntu" embedded in Africa's communal culture.

Big thank you to Dallas Taylor for helping edit this episode!

Also I will be having another book event in Dallas, TX on August 10th at 7PM at Whose Books, a latino-owned bookstore in Bishop Arts. I'll be doing a presentation and book signing where you can also get a copy of book. Hope to see some of you there!

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:03

All right, hello everyone, you are listening to the Blockchain Socialist Podcast And for today's guests, i have Eric Anand.

Speaker 1: 0:22

He is the founder of Aya, which is a platform with the mission to unlocking the potential in Africa by empowering them to build in Web 3.

Speaker 1: 0:32

So, eric, we met interestingly at Zuzalu in Montenegro a few weeks ago, which was a really nice to get to know you And I was really glad that you were there, since you were able to, i guess, kind of represent which is a difficult thing to do, of course, to represent an entire group of people in a place like Zuzalu.

Speaker 1: 0:56

But we had really interesting conversations and I was really curious to get to know your perspective on crypto in Africa and how you see it, since that is a perspective that, of course, is not often shared, especially for people who are in the West. They just don't know what is it like and what is the reality down there, so you can get people who have very wrong ideas about what it is like out there. And then, especially when it comes to people who are building products that are meant for perhaps people also in Africa, i think they miss out on a lot. But, eric, if you want, could you maybe give a quick introduction to yourself and explain a bit who you are, and I'm also curious to know about your experience at Zuzalu. Oh, wow.

Speaker 2: 1:48

Thank you so much, josh, for this opportunity. It is quite interesting how we met I mean, i think just about two weeks to the end of Zuzalu during the coordination. I mean, i was privileged to be a part of that close group And I think we had a great conversation. Listen to your story, your presentation about Rujuvara, one platform of places in this country, syria, it got me thinking And that brought me thinking about the Buddhist communism. So, basically, my name is Eric, i'm a Ghanaian, i'm a Tepi Po, Ghanaian by birth and African by identity.

Speaker 2: 2:41

I've lived and grown in Africa, have been traveling across and across African countries. I work in a global company called Huawei. Briefly, and I hesitated to start because I believe that my continent needs to leverage technology to live frog and be able to accelerate development in terms of human development, because my continent is a very young continent and it's going to be the youngest, even more younger as time comes And we're going to have, by the end of the century, for example, every five, five people, every three of them, will be someone like me black person by the end of the century. So there's a need for us to speed up our adoption of technology and empowering our young people to have transferable skills, but that's where the center of attraction is going to be, not more about the physical infrastructure that we believe you have, like we have in China, the US, or in Canada or in Europe. I believe that the next phase of human development, societal development, is going to be new people. So, basically, that's me. I'm an optimist, i'm a believer of long term, i'm a visionary. I work with the thinking of what next? what should we do? this?

Speaker 2: 4:06

So I don't work with believing that I should be entitled to think that I'm not worth, for I believe in meritocracy. I'm a very strong believer of meritocracy. I'm a strong believer of honesty. I'm a strong believer. So if you think about it, then think of the Singapore pillar, the pillars of Singapore, which built on for key pillars meritocracy, pragmatism and honesty. We call it MPH. I'm a strong advocate for that And I think it's something that if I had the opportunity one day to lead any country in Africa, i would be using those pillars, because we need to really, really, really build society that have a strong moral question. Strong moral question, i mean rather than we don't care how you do it. All we care is that there is a result. So everybody's clamoring for those who have money. I think that money should be something that really drives us to make new part of life, the lives of people. So basically that's all about me and I'm happy to meet you in Zuzalu. It was fun Yeah.

Speaker 1: 5:07

Yeah, i'm curious if you can talk maybe a bit more about your experience at Zuzalu and what was it like? Were the things that you were pleasantly surprised by? Were you there or were there, and were the things that you think people were still missing, or I don't know? I'm just curious. I imagine you guys have had interesting conversations with people who probably knew very little about the context in Africa. So I'm curious, yeah, if you can speak a bit about that.

Speaker 2: 5:36

Yeah, so Zuzalu was an interesting one, right? So I happened to be in Zuzalu by pace of happenstance, and so I always tell people that I don't believe in accidents, right, i don't believe in coincidence. So last year, when we started IA, our mission was very simple to unlock opportunity for African talent. We had opportunity to get an investor from China who has understand of the African context, and he was actually one of our first check. He was the second person who invested in us. So he introduced me to one amazing Chinese lady who lives in the US and works with consensus, and I mean I'll mention her name. Her name is Xu Yao, and so Jerry introduced us to Xu Yao and we got onto Telegram. We had a chat. I feel like, wow, you have a lot of insights about this. I just like your project.

Speaker 2: 6:33

So, early this year, january, i was there when she sent me a message And I was like would you mind to be part of something that Vitalik is planning to have? It's called Zuzalu. It's going to happen in Montenegro from 25th of May as the pop-up city, and would you want to? in fact, he's much interested to have some startup founders from Africa And I talk about you. Would you want to attend, i say, why not? I'm always about why not? So that's how I got to even hear about Zuzalu. So, through Jerry, i got to know Xu Yao. Getting to know about Zuzalu immediately taught about me. So just a minute, josh, just a minute. For a moment I didn't know this lady. Sure, there's no way I was going to be part of Zuzalu, right? So this was all about having the right network of people and being very consistent, being honest. And we had a call and she interests me to Nicole, who happened to be one of the organizers of Zuzalu. And then Nicole wow, you have to be here and connect me to Vitalik and Vitalik Viste, ghana in February, maybe, vitalik Ghana. And that's how I got to Zuzalu. Unfortunately, a lot of people that were invited from Africa couldn't attend it because it's going to assess the visa to attend. I happen to be able to go there because I have just got my US visa My first time. I just got my US O1 visa. So the O1 visa, i mean it took me to the US to complete our text. So my startup has already been accepted into text as a bus team. So I was going to the US to complete the program And after the program, i now flew to Zuzalo on the 11th of March, on the 11th of April, sorry to be part of the Zuzalo experience, and it's been really, really something I will never forget the experience.

Speaker 2: 8:32

So, going to Zuzalo for me, i had only two goals. The goal was very simple learn as much as I can learn from the best of my margin. Staying in one place with Catholic for 30 days, just imagine that As an African founder, it's not a privilege I found myself having, but it's a real time opportunity to see how much I can accumulate in terms of knowledge, to bring it back to my continent and be implemented. I mean, imagine being the same place with the co-founder of Optimism, ben Jones. Imagine being in the same apartment with the co-founder Igloba, Liam. Imagine being the same room with the co-founder of GetCoin And the life. It gives you opportunity to ask the right questions. It gives you opportunity to be vulnerable, to learn, and so my goal in Zuzalo was not go there and then be pitching everybody selling higher, and I didn't try to sell higher. I thought I didn't sell higher. It's what for me that it's an opportunity that I would have had And therefore, how do I contribute value.

Speaker 2: 9:37

So how do I contribute value to Zuzalo? How much can I learn from the great mind that I've gathered there? And I'll tell you, the experience still live with me. I'm trying to be surprised by society that I don't push all the knowledge I have accumulated from Zuzalo to people. So when I'm speaking to a lot of people I try to kind of calm down because if I don't take it I will even confuse people because there's so much I accumulated in two months that I've not even explored one person of it, and even the list that I have shared. I've seen the result of it. For example, in two months in Zuzalo, one of the surprises I discovered was a hack, a growth hack that I learned. Just imagine, in two months. Jesse, the lady that did the hackathon, did over 75 projects in two months. Look, africa had a younger population that are curious to do this, but we didn't even understand that it's one thing to have the skill, but it's another thing to apply the skill. So that's one of the key secret I learned in Zuzalo And since I came, we changed the entire approach of IA And even sharing with the other founders.

Speaker 2: 10:46

Look, if we don't begin to let our young people have continue to build on their skill, it will be difficult for them to actually have global opportunities and be part of Ethereum I mean contributed, be part of Coinbase, be part of Optimism, be part of Bitcoin And all these amazing protocols out there. It's all both of them hacking. And guess what? In just less than a month, one of our alumina, who went through our training, has already won a hackathon in Polygon Lab, just imagine, and it was $70 because of the thinking that, look, it's about hacking, you need to continue to build. So that is one of the amazing experience I've had bringing that ideology of hacking build. That mindset has changed a lot for us And IA not for Oli IA, but other counterparts that we have, our partners that we have, for example, like Web3bridge guys.

Speaker 2: 11:40

We just established Ghana Blocks Association of Ghana. It has never been done. We just set up Blocks Association of Ghana And the Blocks Association of Ghana. Our mandate is very simple Do grassroots mobilization of builders and hackers across the country, and that's, for us, is the goal. It's not talk shop come conferences. I'm not interested in conferences, no more. I'm interested in hackathons helping young people acquire the skill and the food that can be able to build. We need to have more innovators in Africa side that we can use the technology for the good of humanity, because we need the blockchain more than any other person may think of. Thank you.

Speaker 1: 12:16

Yeah, it's interesting that you say that. I think, yeah, it was what I found really interesting. You mentioned earlier that they wanted to have more Africans come to Zuzalu, but the visa situation kind of messed that whole thing up And it sounds like you and probably a few others from Africa who were able to come were because they had maybe some kind of connection to the US or connection to maybe some sort of other Western country that allowed them to get into Montenegro. I found that very unfortunate that happened And, yeah, i imagine for you that's got to be quite a bit of pressure to feel, being that, oh shit, very luckily was able to come because of all of these At the same time.

Speaker 1: 13:06

It is a bit, i don't know, it was a very real instance of what I would consider to be like what you want to call it. I'm not sure if it would be imperialism or just some form of systemic racism at the global level Clearly is still there and it's enforced through these immigration laws, of course. Yeah, i don't know, it was something that was very real, but I was wondering if you had any thoughts based on that experience, like, was there anything that you felt that, or actually? no, i'd rather ask this question first What do you think people kind of generally miss about Africa when it comes to its relation to crypto?

Speaker 2: 13:56

Yeah, thank you, gengel, for this question. So I think one of the major thing people wrote over when it comes to crypto, like it is said. So people have this misconception that blockchain is crypto, luckily, the reason being that earlier on, between 2016, 17, 18, 19, a lot of this crypto project had to be very fraud And a lot of Africans who got into it really got burned. I got burned several. I lost a ton of my savings. Wow. So crypto is your scant.

Speaker 2: 14:37

But once that kept me going was that I knew number one, that innovations take time to settle, and I knew the more I got to know about crypto and blockchain, i realized that, look, this is the solution that is going to help us solve three critical challenges. Number one is Africa is a 54 countries. It's not. Africa is not a country, it's 54 countries And it's a vast land, a land of plenty of abundance, and we have 1.4 billion people, the same people we have in China. But what is working for China is that China is largely homogeneous Largely I'm not saying it's very, but largely. China is a kind of a homogeneous setup. So you have China, china, the yuan, and you can answer everybody without thinking about different currency If you go to the US, you have the dollar and the other states use the dollar one market. So if you're an entrepreneur in the US, you don't have to think about other currencies.

Speaker 2: 15:36

You think about the US dollar, but in Africa for example, if I'm in Ghana, for example, i cannot easily transcribe to somebody who is my neighbor in Togo, who just about four hours drive, four, six hours drive. I cannot do the same thing with my neighbor in Nigeria, who is just about an hour flight from Accra to Lagos. So that challenge of payment and we have an economy that is largely driven by foreign economy I mean policies. So Africa is driven by dollar, the euro and other things. So what the crypto has done for us, especially this stablecoin, is enabling us to unlock the layer of payment. So today I can use stablecoin, which was not possible 10 years ago if I needed to send even $10 to somebody in Kenya and it has to go through hit a US account before it come back to Kenya. Today this has changed. With crypto, i'm able to send within a second and the person receives it indirectly. Number two enabling us to unlock trade among Africa.

Speaker 2: 16:42

And so what people don't know about the West, they don't know a lot about Africa When it comes to crypto, is that the thing that crypto is a trading or crypto just an investment tool, just as they know of in the US, because people use crypto in the US just for investment, etf speculation. It's not really solving a payment issue. But in Africa, crypto is not an investment tool, it is a payment wheel. It's helping us connect 54 countries together. It helps us connect 1.4 billion people to trade among themselves. Similarly, that was never made possible in the last 10, i mean decade ago, but now it's possible.

Speaker 2: 17:22

And that's one thing that people are lacking compared to Africa use cases, the West use cases, because crypto is not really solving any problem in the West, the global North.

Speaker 2: 17:33

Crypto is solving a major problem in the global South because most parts in Africa, apa and other financial tools don't work. You cannot even assess them, and so people now able to have financial record, financial history, able to participate in the global economy through crypto, and therefore the use cases are parallel. They are not the same And therefore there's a more need for crypto in Africa, more than you think of in the West. Unfortunately, because the technology largely is being we have a lot more funding from the West. They dictate how crypto should be used in Africa And that's what the imbalance we have, because all these protocols are not from Africa. All these protocols are either from the Asia or from the UIS, or from Europe, and therefore the same philosophy of capitalism is still driving the use of crypto. This technique that supposedly supposed to kind of corner the world together is a decentralized freedom, is permissionless. Unfortunately, because we still see it as a way to make money. We are still being driven by the same philosophy the Western world has used in the last one century or so.

Speaker 1: 18:46

Yeah, i'm curious, one of the things that I think I can hear kind of people responding to when you describe the situation in Africa. I think a lot of people, i think it's like I'm extremely sympathetic with the struggles there And the fact that, essentially, europe carved out Africa in almost arbitrary borders that were created based on previous colonial, where those colonies used to lie before, which don't align with, kind of like the historical ethnic groups that were existing in those places in the first hand. So it's created the situation where things are very fragmented. People who are maybe part of the same ethnic group could be in one or several other countries, and maybe they still have a relation and they want to send money, but because they're in a different country, you have to go, and then, of course, the financial structure was built by either Europeans or Americans, who then force you to have to send something that has to go through an American bank account before it can go to another country, or to a French bank account before it go to another country, and then they take, of course, a cut of that, therefore permanently putting these countries into just like extracting more wealth than they already have.

Speaker 1: 20:07

By this point, from these countries One a big part of the problem to me seems that it's a very political problem. It's like a huge political thing and it's, of course, not an easy problem to solve. I'm just curious for you how do you see this relationship with the political issues and the technology with crypto? Because some people may argue that, oh well, crypto is just a band-aid to the solution. It's that it's solely letting you. It's not solving the problem, but it's a band-aid, it's not getting to the root. How do you feel about those type of things?

Speaker 2: 20:56

Yeah, I'll be very direct on this one. I think use a template for over 100 years and that template today is obsolete, totally obsolete. It's no more working. In fact, if the world is to pay attention, COVID taught us one thing. Covid taught us one thing that we are all connected by virtue of all of our being vulnerable and therefore I think it's time that the world is beginning to cannot update the system.

Speaker 2: 21:34

So, talking of, for example, the borders we have, it should not be difficult for Africans ourselves, for example, to solve, to say, look, we have used these borders for over 100 years. It's actually not helping our own people, Just by wealth and order. We have African Union. We don't need UN to be ready to give us I mean, they go ahead. We don't need America's CIA or whatever, or whoever in America to give us to say, look, we are Africans, We have no more borders, Anybody can travel across Africa. That's number one. We need to solve that problem for ourselves.

Speaker 2: 22:10

I know it's political, I know Africa is not connected, Africa is not united, because France has its own interests in Africa, America has its own interests in Africa, They have the Eastern bloc, China, Russia, they also are building a strong interest in Africa. Now the point is, Europe has its own interests in Africa. Everybody has a plan for Africa, but only Africans don't have a plan for Africa. Everybody else has a plan for Africa, except Africans have a plan for Africa. And then we cry oh Africans, we need representation, we need this.

Speaker 2: 22:53

Look, I've come to one conclusion that we don't need to continue to cry for the grounds of the past. We should be very wise to say look for the interests of the young people of this continent. We are going to do ABCD. Number one is removing all these artificial borders in Africa, And we don't need UN to do this. We have to solve that on first. Now, on the second part of it, the worst thing that they are doing this thing, they continue to use all mentality of the old dividing rule I mean game theory to depress Africa, to suppress Africa. Look, you're not suppressing Africa Today. I know that whatever is happening today, everybody is going to suffer for it Because, whether we like it or not, the population of the West is declining And they can't do anything about it because that's how the society can come.

Speaker 2: 23:48

Africa is the last and the largest opportunity the West has And therefore, in the youngest continent, the only thing we can do to ourselves is win-win. This one is a win-win. Look, the West will benefit more The West there is everybody else who benefits more if they liberalize their absolute a cake immigration policies. It doesn't make sense, for example, a young African who did not ask God or the Creator to bring him to Africa, talented, smart and being restricted because his leadership, his political leadership, has failed to create a kind of opportunity for him to travel With blockchain technology today, mobility should be a matter of human rights. I should be able to travel. Based on my personal record, we are spending billions of dollars to combat crime. Why should we reward good behavior, for example? And what do I mean by good behavior? Good behavior in the sense that, to the everything that you want from me, josh, by the stroke of the internet, you can find everything I have done in the last 10 years. Why should we do this? Okay, i, eric, want to travel to Spain. What has Eric done in the last 10 years To match it? both positive and negative, and if the negative I mean negative, i mean, outweigh the positive. This guy does not qualify to come here. It shouldn't be based on my passport. I think that if you reward good behavior, the world will save more money and can channel those money that we use to combat crime Because people everybody would say, okay, i need to put up a good behavior to be able to travel, because now, travel is not based on my passport, trump is based on my good behavior, my talent. I have my skills, that I have the value I can create and therefore, anybody, anyone, should be able to move freely. Freedom of movement enables us to create more opportunities, be more productive, and I say the people that are going to build the next the world that we have today is going to be young Africans And therefore, if you deny them access to travel, to kind of connect with our people, i don't need to stay in America for my entire life. I just want to be in America for two days, maybe one month, two months. Meet Josh, go to Spain, meet Josh. I mean exchange knowledge and come back and implement in my content. In fact, i have a lot of young people who say I don't want to go to America, i just want to go for vacation, understand the system, come back and implement. That's how the world is going And therefore I think that the political issue we Africans have to serve Africa.

Speaker 2: 26:17

We need to have a plan for our own continent, because everybody else have a plan for Africa and self Africans have a plan for Africa. And the more we do this, the more we kind of incentivize the West to continue to use all systems to surprise the continent. But the moment we say, look, nobody needs to travel across Africa, they must begin to change their own plan, because if you don't solve, it's a charity, we got home. If you're not doing this, you don't expect America to change their travel policy, you don't expect the UK to change their, because you yourself, you're still using the system that they gave you. They know that it's still working for you and you're still holding onto it and then creating division, making your people struggle, because you think that that's the only way to protect your people. Nobody's protecting nobody because at the end of the day, when there's a massive unemployment in Africa, because the continent is growing at an alarming rate, not only will it affect Africans, but it also affects the planning of the UN, it also affects the planning of America. It also affects the planning of Europe And therefore who's going. Everybody loses And therefore I think I put to the world that, look, let's begin to re-work our old policies and then begin to look at how can we solve the problem of access, how can we help young people access our global opportunities, have access to information that will help them improve their livelihood and be able to create economic need.

Speaker 2: 27:39

I'm not interested in the gold oil thing. I think the technology is here to help everybody And Africa. Young people are more than happy to work in Africa for global companies without even a need for them to travel out of the continent. We want to eat our food, we want to enjoy our outflow bits. All we need is access to global opportunities while staying in Africa, so we can be able to contribute to the global economy and the internet economy. I believe that's the way to go into the future.

Speaker 1: 28:05

Right. So it sounds like you're very pro-African Union and sort of tearing down African borders as they exist, and for you, i guess these tools blockchain, crypto are tools to begin to almost practice the possibility of an Africa which does not have borders, africa that does not suffer from the issues that it suffers from.

Speaker 2: 28:33

Absolutely. Blockchain crypto is one key technology. You know why it's so essential and why I'm so passionate about blockchain. Of all the innovations that I've seen come the LEDs of the internet, the second phase of the internet, social media. Everything was centralized, come off, but the blockchain and the future of the internet is looking like more decentralized tools And it has more of no permission. You don't need nobody owned the patents And therefore provided an opportunity to kind of reflow a lot of the processes. And one thing that all the innovation that we have seen on our day was the issue of ability to have a decentralized form of payments And blockchain providers, and that's why I think I believe blockchain crypto provides us a unique opportunity to define our economic structure in Africa.

Speaker 2: 29:25

For example, we are able to, with the blockchain, tokenize all our assets. Africa controls 65% of the global supply chain in terms of raw materials. Why shouldn't we tokenize gold in Ghana and mobilize the capital, and then we might go to ourselves, refine it and sell the end product? Why shouldn't we tokenize cobalt in DRC So that we can mobilize the capital needed so that we can mine the cobalt in Africa? bring all the equipment and bring the expertise in Africa, mine it and sell to Apple, sell to Tesla, instead of just mining the raw material, taking it out there and selling us Apple for $1500. Tesla, and then we just get a portion of it.

Speaker 2: 30:08

I think the blockchain provides a unique opportunity for Africa to create real value Not the content that just have $4 trillion GDP, at least China, $19 trillion GDP, america almost $1 trillion GDP, meaning we are 65% of real value is in Africa. I believe blockchain providers are opportunities And we don't need to wait for IMF or World Bank to say, oh, the way to go is blockchain. Before Africans did that in Africa. Policymakers in Africa begin to see the technology as a way to kind of create a new economy incentive, a new opportunity for young people to be innovators, to create this solution for us. We understand our continent, we understand our precarious problem that we have And we can actually solve this problem through collaboration. And I'm not saying that it should be African affair. I'm saying that we believe that the future is about collaboration. I believe the future is collaboration between the West and the East. Everybody because it's not about you must lose and we must win. I don't believe in that. I believe that the future of the world, the sanctity of this world that we have today is about collaboration, and Africa is the last continent to actually make use good use of its resources that we have had. It had been exploited for years. Still we still have a lot, even not that. The next phase is that how do we collaborate to ensure that value is created, value is created, really rooted and accumulated in Africa, so that the people of Africa can also enjoy economic livelihood?

Speaker 2: 31:43

The issue brought that economics, it's not politics. In fact, the politics is less. Until you solve the economic matters, the policy issues will continue to be like the big thing. When China saw that, china got the secret 50 years ago and then decided to solve the economic matters before politics. Now they are fighting the politics to have a position. They didn't actually start with the politics, they started with economics. I think that Africa, we added Rome by fighting for economic freedom. Instead, we should have fought for economic freedom first. Then, when we have enough, we cannot begin to assess our economic strengths. But now we fought for economic I mean a political. Now the economy is bad. That's what we are doing. We are not doing that. Now we cannot even our economy, our political freedom is even in question. Right. I see that happening in Saudi.

Speaker 1: 32:35

Arabia.

Speaker 2: 32:36

They have solved the economic power. They have the economic power now. They are now assessing at other parts, subtly assessing the authority politically. That's what we are doing. That's right. I think that the future for Africa is to concentrate back to economic matters. It's the most important thing to solve in society, not politics.

Speaker 1: 32:58

Hi everyone. If you're enjoying this episode so far, be sure to subscribe, leave a review, share with a friend and join the crypto leftist communities on Discord or Reddit, which you can find links to in the show notes. If you're enjoying the episode or find the content to make important, you can pitch into my efforts, starting at $3 a month on Patreoncom. slash the blockchain socialists. Help me out and join the nearly 100 other patrons that contribute financially, which really helps, since making this stuff isn't free in terms of money or time. As a patron, you'll get a shout out on an episode and access to bonus content like Q&A episodes. you can submit and vote on questions you'd like me to answer and I'll give my thoughts in roughly 20 minutes.

Speaker 1: 33:31

The current bonus episodes have so far explored plenty of topics, including how co-ops and dows relate, whether there is a socialist blockchain, a review of previous crypto events I've been to and recently, a video reaction to an episode of the D program.

Speaker 1: 33:44

Of course, i'll still be making free contents like this episode to help spread the message that blockchain doesn't need to be used to further entrench capitalist exploitation, if we put our efforts into it. So if that message resonates with you, i hope you'll consider helping out. One of the things that I think would be interesting to hear from you as well is what is the if you can give us just like a picture of, like the reality on the ground in places like Nigeria Organa as well where the use of crypto is very high? I think Nigeria is the country with like the most cryptocurrency use in any other country in the world. It has a huge population. There's a lot of people in Nigeria and, from what I understand, it's not uncommon for you to walk around and see people like using cryptocurrency, or for people like booths with cryptocurrency in it, which, to some people may be in certain parts of the West like never get to see or have not seen before.

Speaker 2: 34:45

Yes, i think so. One of the reasons why Nigeria has a lot of people using crypto is, i mean, natural, and Nigerians are very entrepreneurial, and when they see something, they really want to test it, and so you have a very dynamic young population in Nigeria, and they also have superplacid Nigeria more than 20 million people, and so they had some challenge with their currencies. I mean, your local currency cannot do more than $100 at the point. It cannot even transfer $120 on your card. Therefore, the only opportunity they have was to use crypto right As a means of payment paying for their supplies in China. It's a heavily important driven society, so that was one.

Speaker 1: 35:29

The Naira has like heavy capital controls.

Speaker 2: 35:32

Exactly, and so that was one of those factors, and there were a lot of regulatory impediments in the way of the central bank. So the last eight years, the reason why we have seen a lot of drive for crypto adoption in Nigeria was because people needed to transact. People still needed to be part of the global economy, they still needed to pay their school fees, they still needed to send money to their family and friends, and their local currency card bank account cannot do that. So for that, and the only option was crypto. That's what I previously said Crypto go beyond trading. Crypto in Africa, go beyond ETF or speculation.

Speaker 2: 36:10

Crypto in Africa is solving problems that have never been solved in the last hundred years, and crypto has helped a lot of Africans be part of the financial, global financial system, to be able to afford whatever they want to afford, to be able to pay for whatever cost. We are import driven. Largely, we import almost everything in Africa, and the dollar cannot continue with me to be so. The easier way to do is to use my local currency by USDT on a peer to peer network and able to do the next part with anybody in the world. So that's one of the key drivers And, on top of that, nigeria has a huge young people with a skill And therefore most of this blocking project were being built by Nigerian government, and so it is just so far to say it's important for this blockchain foundation and protocols to really really deploy a lot more resources into the country. That is really kind of expanding their reach In terms of utility, in terms of usability and in terms of adoption.

Speaker 2: 37:15

Africa has proven to be the real use case for crypto and blockchain. Why shouldn't there be enough commensurate response in terms of investment, in terms of support, in terms of deploying events? Why shouldn't there be, for example, each global in Africa? Why shouldn't there be I mean, devcom in Africa? Why should there be DevConnet in Africa? Why shouldn't there be, for example, consensus in Africa? Because, for example, metamask has one of their biggest markets in Africa, which is Nigeria.

Speaker 2: 37:46

So if all these things are true, then it should not be so much to ask that we need to see a presence Young people need to see I mean lots of Vitalik on the continent more often. People need to see consensus people behind consensus, people behind Metamask, people behind Optimism Coinbase in Africa. I think it's just right to ask that, look, we want to see people behind this, so it will inspire more young people to say, look, we can also do it For me. That's how I see it, because if I'm giving you enough for your product, why shouldn't there be difficulty to really bring those incentives down here to a place where it is really testing the usability, the utility and the adoption of that technology?

Speaker 1: 38:36

Yeah, thanks for sharing that Now. I think it'd be good to I would love to talk to you about Aya. if you could explain this project that you've been working on. What are the current hurdles for those in Africa trying to learn more about getting involved in crypto? So, like, what are the difficulties that you face being in Africa and getting involved in everything? And, yeah, I guess you can explain what Aya is, of course, Yeah, thank you so much for this.

Speaker 2: 39:07

So, while we start Aya is, i've been an entrepreneur. My first startup that we tried to build we tried to solve the issue of payment in Africa. So our startup would solve issue of payment. We'd be the wallet that enable people to save money from one part of the other. It didn't work so well And one of the lessons that we learned was that look, why shouldn't you look at crypto from a different point?

Speaker 2: 39:29

In fact, the builders of crypto are blocking engineers in the world. Africa just have about 3% of the total builders in the world. So I and my team decided look, we need to do something about this. We saw crypto from a one point of view, just to use for payments, but what about we empowering the young people with the skill they need? become solidity engineers, rust engineers, smart contract engineers, product designer, product builders, so that they can actually build solutions that can actually solve problem in Africa. Because my research, i mean I found out that a lot of these projects are being built without the context of Africa. So, for example, you have a lot of people still using phones that are not smartphones right, and therefore, if you build a wallet that do not communicate to a smartphone user, how would you get adoption? And that's what I came to be.

Speaker 2: 40:22

And large again, we have a lot of talent who have skills, but they can't assess jobs. In fact, in Africa, a survivor you have to survive first. You have to. You have to solve the issue of food, clothing, shelter And therefore every person. Finish school, you have the responsibility to get a job and take care of your siblings if you have and take care of your parents. That's a major problem to have right. Unlike the West, where young people finish school, at least you have some social net. You have food bank. In the US, if you don't have food, you can go to food bank and get food to eat. In Africa We don't have that. So a lot of young people are going through a lot of challenges, but their skills sometimes don't have to up to scale to enable them to do When even they are upscale. They don't even have access to this opportunity because they don't have the trust from the West to say, oh, i can actually hire this person to do this.

Speaker 2: 41:16

And fortunately for us, covid has actually read democratized work how, what should be? Therefore, people don't need to work remotely And the primary scale remote work is for us to focus on work. We know that we're three. Everybody in work to is moving to a three. So how do we become that player, to become that pioneer in Africa? to train at least our goal is to train 10,000 talent in Africa in the next five years to have smart contract capability, able to build smart contract products, be able to be designers And that's the goal is having, not only to train them, but, interestingly, we train and then we enable them to be hackers, builders, to continue to hack on product so they can be efficient, they can be smart and be able to connect them to global opportunities. And that's the way for us.

Speaker 2: 42:09

We believe crypto will have mass adoption because now we are all solved the payment issue. We now need to think about the talent issue, because if you don't have enough digital skill talent in Africa, it will be difficult for us to go to a next layer of the technology. It will be also difficult to onboard a billion people If I mean, if not billion people, millions of people on this technology, because it is really solving our own problem And that's basically what IA is trying to solve And interested with system. Great success so far with trade 66 people. We're just three and 50.

Speaker 2: 42:40

We have 4000 application last year with 366 already.

Speaker 2: 42:44

Some of them have started winning hackathons with polygon laughs and sell across across the world, which give us an incentive to even dig deeper. And recently we have started doing just lunch at a challenge in the IA or IA lab, where we try challenges for people to build solution and we give them some incentive just for them to build. The goal is to build a massive developer community in Africa, and that's another one going to call hack it Ghana, For example. Just have a hack it Ghana. The goal is to go to all the universities in Ghana, build clouds, build Ethereum cloud, coin based cloud, polygon cloud, citizen cloud and among the students for them to have these challenges every day So by the time they finish school, they already have practical experience to actually work on real project, and that's the mission of IA. For us is all about empowering Africa, connecting African talent to the world, for them to come build this and support the growth of world trade and crypto adoption and build a product that really, really solve African problem and the support to global markets.

Speaker 1: 43:45

Right. So I think this links to kind of the thing that you were saying earlier about Africans being able to build, forge their own future. essentially is how I guess I would put it. But it's, yeah, i guess one of the things that I fear about the introduction of blockchains and crypto, especially to the global south, is, of course, that, like, all these systems will be made by the same people who made systems before, the same types of people who made the systems before, and it just kind of like re instantiates the same types of hierarchical power structures that are causing the problems in the first place. But then now it's like maybe there's like a veneer of like we're helping save you because the technology is new Here.

Speaker 1: 44:30

I think what you're saying is that crypto is already in Africa, it's solving problems for people here and they're using it, and there's probably likely not going to change anytime soon. So, in order to not be like a victim of, perhaps because all these tools are being used by Africans, of them only being made by Westerners, for example, and then like causing more of the same problems than said, if Africans could learn how to create the tools themselves, then they can create the platforms, protocols what have you that would theoretically help Africans be able to force their own destiny in that regard. So IA is about giving people those skills to be able to do that.

Speaker 2: 45:20

Yeah, giving people the tool, I mean, instead of giving us fish. I think that we need to have the tool to able to solve You just summarize it. I mean you are not saving us. The technology is good. I mean, it's a global technology, everybody can use it But now we say that, look, we can actually use the same technology and solve problems locally.

Speaker 2: 45:38

That can actually Bring more people into the mainstream and I did a day. It's a win-win right. And so teaching people to be I mean, i mean builders, i put the tool on your hand to actually create the Solission, that the lead that will solve local problem, because if you don't understand as a society, you can actually solve the problem for them. And how do you bring these tools to the hands of a lot of young people in the continent who are already young, agile, very resilient, and Empower them with these two to solve problems? that ultimately increases The protocol adoption ultimately. Look, is a win-win. This guys are building that on it, on a, on Ethereum, on polygon, on optimism is increasing Network adoption ultimately. So it's not like, oh, you think power, african talent, they are going to take the technology away. No, it's a, it's a win-win. Therefore, we need to see that way. The more you empower people to have the tool on your hands to build, the more the protocol Owners also benefit from it. So it's a kind of a win-win.

Speaker 2: 46:40

That's why I'm excited, unlike the previous, where it's centralized. Why are you doing Nobody care about you? this one I need it to. I'm building. I know you're going to benefit. I also know I'm so beneficial I'm used to solve problem in my local settings. So it's kind of a beautiful future that I foresee us kind of collaborating more with this protocol, global protocol on us. But the focus should you kind of change a bit. Instead of staying There and you don't care about what's happening here Me but people are really using the technology down here. How do we change that and then bring it closer to the people?

Speaker 1: 47:15

Yeah, i Get your reasoning. I wonder have you thought about or do you worry about perhaps, what could happen Or how would you avoid perhaps extending the worst of what would be like the gig economy In Africa with this kind of setup? So, like a lot of times I mean and we have, we have this issue in the West as well like gig kind of gig work tends to cheapen Over time the work of people as a as they get going and it creates worse and worse labor conditions over time. Do you have any thoughts on like how, maybe to to counter that?

Speaker 2: 47:55

Yeah, i think I'll be very honest with you. I think that when you want to get your Your yourself organized, the goal initial is not to fight for equity. I believe in that. I think that we have everything on our side to prove that we can do it. That's why I talk about trust one. Trust now number two I have it access to the right of Network of people to really give you opportunity to show proof of work. Number Three is now we have gotten it. Now We are proving that we can do it.

Speaker 2: 48:29

Now Can we talk about fair Let's change right, so First, ten years ago, is not to say, hey, because you're paying somebody in the US hundred twenty thousand dollars or two hundred fifty thousand dollars, but it's in kind of work, pay somebody, nothing that is seen. Because, look, let's be honest with ourselves, the economy situation, the son of I mean living. This cost of living is different in different geographical areas. Right, so it'll cost you somebody in the in Europe about $40 to rent a studio apartment. You may not cost me the same to have to rent a studio apartment in our class. So those things. I know it's a global thing, but for now, the first leg of our mission is to get more young people to have a scale. After they have a scale, in essence, that to open up, open them up to this opportunity for them to build Sub these problems in real time so that it can become efficient when they come fishing. They need to be innovators and build projects. The next layer is to unlock capital for them, and unlock capital for them means that they cannot be able to employ people locally who had a scale and they will not be a challenge of Finding the right talents to help you scale your, your innovation or your startup. That will be solved locally and therefore the next thing is that they can still Ghana any point Africa and so work with global companies. The goal is helping the global company save costs and have access to quality talent outside their geographical locations.

Speaker 2: 49:55

Tersa felt we just all think is something that I think it took Indians more than 30 years for them to become what they are today, but what it did was that look, don't worry, bring everything to India, will help you serve it and the whole tech Move to India, our soft India, and they really fight for fair wage. They just wanted to show the world that we can do it, and Indians have not achieved optimum. They have actually achieved global scale. Africa has done this at that scale. We are seeing that we have and for one of the most resilient and active young population that actually are eager to work and Just get able to solve the three basic need food, shelter, clothing Let's solve this in first. Other part will come in the future, maybe 20 years from now, 30 years from now, after we have done, have gone. Then we have achieved scale.

Speaker 2: 50:47

At that point people cannot begin to ask for look now with me. I mean more, more, more, more remuneration, better, the same standard we have in China. For now. We have built economy that is scalable, system are working and people don't need to talk to India, no more of China, no more. Or in America they are staying. Africa the economy is robust. I mean quite a big cost of living has increased and therefore they need to have better Remuneration.

Speaker 2: 51:09

At this stage we need to solve the basic first food, shelter, clothing, and assess when we have access. I think it's enough for us not coming, for us Not to cover it, not for anybody give us it. Africa doesn't need it. Africa need investment in the young people. The aid is not working. It's never going to work. The top-down approach is the never going to work. Let's now begin to do bottom up. Let's empower the young people. If you empower the young people, what is? that's two things. They are not going to cross the Mediterranean sea to die. It's therefore now. You cannot set up an NGO or let's now solve the issue of the Mediterranean cross, but we don't need that. Let's solve the problem now so that nobody will travel through the Mediterranean sea. You come when they have food, they have shelter, they have clothing. They're not thinking about traveling out of the continent. They are thinking about. How do I have skill to be able to support global companies, working for them remotely?

Speaker 1: 52:01

fair. So one of the things that we spoke about when we were together to Jaloo was what you called the Communism of Ubuntu, which was I thought it was a super interesting concept that you sort of introduced during our workshops And we spoke about a bit. But do you want to speak about what is the? what is the communism of Ubuntu?

Speaker 2: 52:23

It's very simple, right? So Africa is largely a communal society. Africa is largely More like community oriented. That has been our DNA, right? Africa is more of. You are because I am it's. We are together.

Speaker 2: 52:40

So I'll give example. So, for example, if an African man typical African man buys a gun, josh, his first instinct is not to say, hey, you're my property, get out of it, i'll shoot you. When an African man has a gun, for example, his instinct is to protect his neighbors. The only time you want to use the gun against his community is when the community rise against him. But the reverse is true in the West. If I have a gun, josh, and I step on your, on your land, the next he tells me hey, get out of here, i'll shoot you. And indeed you're gonna shoot me because there's zero empathy. Everything is calculated as numbers. Right, it is quantified. We don't have that compassion of one another. Africa has practiced in butto for centuries. It's unfortunate that it's largely wiping out of a society. But I brought it up in the community because I realized that we have a conversation That is seeking to kind of solve a non-existing problem And therefore, if you have some non-existing problem.

Speaker 2: 53:53

You're only saying that you're coming with and the same ego and saying that everything's fine, forget everything and let's see how we can continue to enjoy our privileges. But what in bootles, that for the world is that we begin to look at the world from a bigger perspective, from a point of kindness through humanity. Put the human at the center because, whether we like it or not, innovations are good, technicians are good, but not technical work with that compassion to the human being. And Therefore I asked a question Can we build a new world, talk about network, state coordination, network cities and using technology, of all these things and still do not solve big system like mobility, food, shelter, clothing, if you're not talking about these things and we attend all the way, so you have gotten to a point where we need to now rethink everything through a concept of capitalism, then I'm thinking that We are actually not reflecting, and that's what in bootle is key.

Speaker 2: 55:05

Because you are, because I am, and I am because you are Human beings. We have evolved. The only thing that is true about human humanity is that humans are not status. Our story keep on getting better, our ideologies getting better, but one thing that we are failing to do is that we are failing to be compassionate about the atrocities that we have, we have caused to this world, to humanity. And if you don't do it about it, by beginning to look at it from togetherness, community, there's high rate of mental health, high rate of depression, because it's individualism. The worst is individualism is 받.

Speaker 2: 55:45

Certain things are not Черó As African. Despite all the pains Africans go through, josh, we don't wake up seeing mass depression, mass mental health cases, because we are resilient, because we are in butu You are because I am and I am because you are And I think we can scale this, we can explore this to the global world. Everybody needs somebody, we all need each other. See, we don't need all this, all this thing that we have created to the world that is creating the division And that's why the communism of in butu is an old primary DNA of a typical African society that has been erased over the years. But going back to history, because I love what Seville said is they cannot create the future without quantity to the past. You mirror the past, bring it to the present and able to kind of gauge the future. And I'm saying that we can actually mirror the past and say how can we use technology to create communism in butu, where the human is at the center, everything is at the center And everybody wants you can make money, so much money.

Speaker 2: 56:54

I'm not saying capital is not good, i'm a capitalist. That kind of capitalism is a capitalism of empathy. I don't want to make. I mean I'm a conscious capitalist. I don't want to make money at the expense of somebody's blood. I don't want to make money because I need to make money. I think that we can make money, but we can still be moral upright and so be great abandons. I still believe that we can so be consciously right and so make so much money. I don't believe that I need to make money. So to be someone is down to make money And therefore the current structure we have, i think, is working okay.

Speaker 2: 57:29

But we need to talk about it, and that's what the communism of in butu is so critical in our conversation. Else, we are going to have something that we cannot hold. I mean, we're dead and gone. I see it as a danger in the future where individualism will make the society just wipe off, but Africa will still maintain. And for us, because I will know that we are very empathetic, we are very sympathetic, we are very compassionate Why shouldn't we have this kind of conversation so that we can make people aware and then change that It's not right for people to be depressed. It's not right for people to go through mental difficulty alone After 18, go away, you are done, i don't care about you. Families are throwing out their children because you are 18 years, go and find your own way. No, that's not how society should work. It's about us. Together, we win. Together, we can make more. Together, we can create a new reality for humanity to exist. Together, exist and coexist and co-multiply and co-create and co-share and make everyone happy.

Speaker 1: 58:28

Interesting. Yeah, i think that's perhaps a good place to end it. Thanks so much, eric, for taking the time and sharing your perspective. I'm interested in continuing our conversations over time, of course, and yeah, i think I learned a lot from you And I hope the audience has as well gained a new perspective when it comes to Africa. But maybe, just to end it off, do you want to share with people where they can keep up with you and your work?

Speaker 2: 58:59

Oh, thank you so much, josh, for this opportunity. It's just a conversation If I really had to sit down and play with what I was going to say, but I just want to have real, real conversation from my heart And I hope I was able to share a bit of what I believe the world should look like in the next couple of years. I'm very online. My name is Eric Arnan, i'm on LinkedIn, i'm on Twitter as a underscore Anna 24. And, of course, we are building movement in Africa, for Aya Aya is empowering young Africans to be creators, and so our tagline is empowering Africa, transforming the world. Join us, let's make a difference. Join us, let's change the narrative. Where people want to travel out of Africa, we call it leave. Opportunities are outside. We want people to stay in Africa and support the world. We call it brain export. Join us on our mission to create a new reality where we export brain, not brain drain. Thank you.

Speaker 1: 59:56

Awesome. Thanks so much.